Curse

Test Me · Nov 26, 2009, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

You really don't get it.
ER allows for spamming Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond on recharge, almost all the time. That's spamming two of the most powerful prots in the game.

So does Balthazar Spirit. So does Essence Bond. And they're not even elite skills. It is precisely those that 600s and 55s use. And they seem to be better than ER as I haven't seen 600s or 55s drop the two for a ER replacement.

And besides that I am pretty sure you can find many other builds that allow you to spam prot spirit and spirit bond at recharge, again without involving an elite skill even. Even ritualists can do it. And btw ritualists can also spam party wide heals of over 400hp with no health lost at all. [sarcasm]Damn those ritualists, they are going to replace ER eles which are going to replace monks...[/sarcasm]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Last time I checked there was a thread about ERs being the deaths of monks.

Trolls come in pairs starting same thread under different titles and activating in both these days

But Dear Mr Reaper,

How about you go ingame and be happy that you can pug and you don't need to spam "GLF monk to go!!!!!" anymore but just take an ele with you ha? Is it that hard for you to be happy?

I did an experiment btw, just for fun. So loaded ER on my ele and went yesterday night spamming that I am lfg for UW. After a looong wait (1h) a pug accepted me and asked me to change to an AP nuke build.

How about that for the "meta" and the "status quo" and replacing monks absurdities?

Xenomortis · Nov 26, 2009, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

So does Balthazar Spirit. So does Essence Bond. And they're not even elite skills. It is precisely those that 600s and 55s use. And they seem to be better than ER as I haven't seen 600s or 55s drop the two for a ER replacement.

Not even close. 55s manage enough energy gain to keep themselves alive. Using Essence Bond and Balthazar Spirit to try and fuel keeping prots on an entire team is insane.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

I did an experiment btw, just for fun. So loaded ER on my ele and went yesterday night spamming that I am lfg for UW. After a looong wait (1h) a pug accepted me and asked me to change to an AP nuke build.

How about that for the "meta" and the "status quo" and replacing monks absurdities?

Eugh...
Nobody has claimed ER Eles have become meta. If they have, then they're wrong and you should point to the relevant post.
The point is, people are worried about it becoming meta and it's the principle of the thing.

Test Me · Nov 26, 2009, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Not even close. 55s manage enough energy gain to keep themselves alive. Using Essence Bond and Balthazar Spirit to try and fuel keeping prots on an entire team is insane.

Only problem is that you don't need to. Since you can just hold all agro all day long alone. So since one one else can be attacked why heal or protect them... ha? Actually why bring them along to begin with? And so the solo builds have started. OK I'm really done. If you want to make yourself believe ER is the apocalypse of monking go ahead be my guest. No one can make sense with a mad man.

reaper with no name · Nov 26, 2009, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

So does Balthazar Spirit. So does Essence Bond. And they're not even elite skills. It is precisely those that 600s and 55s use. And they seem to be better than ER as I haven't seen 600s or 55s drop the two for a ER replacement.

And besides that I am pretty sure you can find many other builds that allow you to spam prot spirit and spirit bond at recharge, again without involving an elite skill even. Even ritualists can do it. And btw ritualists can also spam party wide heals of over 400hp with no health lost at all. [sarcasm]Damn those ritualists, they are going to replace ER eles which are going to replace monks...[/sarcasm]

Ritualists are capable of 400 hp party heals, but they cannot spam them.

600s and 55s are not capable of spamming infuse, nor are they capable of spamming all the prots that an ER healer can (PS and SB may be the most powerful prots, but they are by no means all there is to it).

Quote:

Trolls come in pairs starting same thread under different titles and activating in both these days

But Dear Mr Reaper,

How about you go ingame and be happy that you can pug and you don't need to spam "GLF monk to go!!!!!" anymore but just take an ele with you ha? Is it that hard for you to be happy?

I did an experiment btw, just for fun. So loaded ER on my ele and went yesterday night spamming that I am lfg for UW. After a looong wait (1h) a pug accepted me and asked me to change to an AP nuke build.

How about that for the "meta" and the "status quo" and replacing monks absurdities?

First off, the other thread wasn't even supposed to be about discussing whether it was overpowered, but for methods of nerfing it. It got sidetracked by various people.

I'll be "happy" with the game when there is a reason to play every profession. The three things I think need to be done to fix the game (nerf SF, nerf ER, make dervishes useful) all arise from this.

I also recall specifically stating that this has nothing to do with the meta or status quo. ER healers remove the purpose of playing as a monk. The fact that PUGs don't realize this doesn't change that. So please let sleeping strawmen lie and focus on the actual arguments being put forth.

Test Me · Nov 26, 2009, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

First off, the status quo is no better, except that monks are the ones left asking themselves that question. So I don't see that as being a very good argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I also recall specifically stating that this has nothing to do with the meta or status quo. ER healers remove the purpose of playing as a monk.

Self destruction in ... 5 ... 4 ... 3... 2 ... 1

Xenomortis · Nov 26, 2009, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Thank you for making my point for me.

Except the midline can't always cope. Unless I have 4 midliners, all with elite cleanup, we're going to suffer.
When faced with a lot of degen, ER suffers. You may not take deaths, but against pressure is the time when you want lots of smaller heals - maybe even in the form of Heal Party from a Monk with Healer's Boon.
The midline can carry some cleaning, but they can't carry meaningful heals whilst performing their main function.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

Only problem is that you don't need to. Since you can just hold all agro all day long alone. So since one one else can be attacked why heal or protect them... ha? Actually why bring them along to begin with? And so the solo builds have started. OK I'm really done. If you want to make yourself believe ER is the apocalypse of monking go ahead be my guest. No one can make sense with a mad man.

Physicals are the kings of damage in GW. Buffing and supporting physicals leads to strong, durable setups that can steamrole through anything.

Getting a caster to tank is slow.

ER will not render monks useless. It doesn't.
It will not end monking.
But it is overpowered.

Everything I say from now on will probably just be repetition. We've all made arguments and nothing has really developed.

reaper with no name · Nov 26, 2009, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

Self destruction in ... 5 ... 4 ... 3... 2 ... 1

Status quo of the game mechanics, not the status quo of the community. I apologize for not being clear on that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Except the midline can't always cope. Unless I have 4 midliners, all with elite cleanup, we're going to suffer.
When faced with a lot of degen, ER suffers. You may not take deaths, but against pressure is the time when you want lots of smaller heals - maybe even in the form of Heal Party from a Monk with Healer's Boon.
The midline can carry some cleaning, but they can't carry meaningful heals whilst performing their main function.

Physicals are the kings of damage in GW. Buffing and supporting physicals leads to strong, durable setups that can steamrole through anything.

Getting a caster to tank is slow.

ER will not render monks useless. It doesn't.
It will not end monking.
But it is overpowered.

Everything I say from now on will probably just be repetition. We've all made arguments and nothing has really developed.

If the midline can't cope with the cleaning, what makes you think a monk will?

In the time it takes to cast Heal Party and have it recharge, an ER healer will have infused the entire party.

MaaKotka · Nov 26, 2009, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

In the time it takes to cast Heal Party and have it recharge, an ER healer will have infused the entire party.

Wrong. Just half of the party if he spams infuse without casting prots in the middle. 1/4 sec cast + 3/4 sec aftercast. If you want to infuse more than 2 times in a row, those next infuses aren't anymore that strong and that is the reason I like having hb monk along with me while I er/infuse. It also attracts hm monsters to attack you which also makes you not able to infuse all day long without problems.

ER template is strong I don't argue about that. It just has its weaknesses also and it isn't that careless and foolproof as you make it sound.

Jeydra · Nov 27, 2009, 01:34 AM // 01:34

@reaper -

Yes we'll need everything to get nerfed at once, and that's not going to happen. Sad. Still, I'd settle with some indication that nerfs will happen. Right now for example we have that Shadow Form will be getting nerfed sometime in the future. If ER is nerfed then I'd also wish for some knowledge that other overpowered skills will be getting nerfed.

Why use anything but the best? Simple, because you might not have the option. For example, you're PuGGing a mission and you've picked up 3 Elementalists, 1 Monk, 2 Warriors, an Assassin and a Ritualist. Would you ask the Monk to Smite and have two Elementalists run ER? I wouldn't. Hell personally I'd just go in with almost any build they're running.

Monks cope better with party-wide damage - Infuse may be godly with ER support, but then you can't Infuse half the party in the time it takes to cast Heal Party. You have 0.75s aftercast and 0.25s cast time, total 1s, and you can only Infuse two players. Party-wide damage destroys ER, as you will quickly find out if you do Unwaking Waters. By the way, Heal Party can and should be backed by Healer's Boon (think of the health gained: +44% via Life Attunement from the ER Ele, +50% from HB, 14 Healing Prayers, x2 from GoLE = 300++ health to everyone).

Finally, Monks aren't made useless by Elementalists. They have lots of advantages over ER Infusers. The Dervish vs. War / Sin case is a rather different; I don't know enough to comment on that precisely but it seems to me Dervishes still have some advantages (Avatars, Save Yourselves!, higher Scythe Mastery, a non-Flail IAS, etc).

By the way I've said elsewhere that I don't think running two ER Infusers is a good idea. That's because they'll be stacking Prots as well as Infusing each other when they shouldn't be, and they completely miss out on hex removal / condition removal (although they do get the Prot-Bond-on-everybody incredi-perk).

@Xenos - ER Elementalists miss out on two important prots, Aegis and Shield of Absorption. Yes Spirit Bond + Prot Spirit covers for most part, but I don't think it's fair to say their damage mitigation exceeds that of everything else.

Agree entirely that ER Elementalists don't make Monks useless, but it's an overpowered template. I just don't think it should be nerfed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

So does Balthazar Spirit. So does Essence Bond. And they're not even elite skills. It is precisely those that 600s and 55s use. And they seem to be better than ER as I haven't seen 600s or 55s drop the two for a ER replacement.

And besides that I am pretty sure you can find many other builds that allow you to spam prot spirit and spirit bond at recharge, again without involving an elite skill even. Even ritualists can do it. And btw ritualists can also spam party wide heals of over 400hp with no health lost at all. [sarcasm]Damn those ritualists, they are going to replace ER eles which are going to replace monks...[/sarcasm]

You have no - repeat no idea what you are talking about. ER gives Elementalists enough energy to maintain 9(!!) enchantments at a time, indefinitely. Aside from ER not getting interrupted / removed, there is no attached condition. Where else can you find an energy engine of this power? Balth Spirit and Essence Bond only works in 600 builds and not anywhere else. They fail if the Monk is not tanking. They can't maintain Protective Bond, yet an ER Elementalist can easily maintain at least 4. There is no comparison. ER is the game's current most powerful energy engine, more powerful than having a battery BiP you 24/7.

Check your facts before you post.

PS: Rits can't heal 400 health single-target, and they can't "spam" party heals either (25s recharge on Kaolai remember?).

Malician · Nov 27, 2009, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

By the way I've said elsewhere that I don't think running two ER Infusers is a good idea. That's because they'll be stacking Prots as well as Infusing each other when they shouldn't be, and they completely miss out on hex removal / condition removal (although they do get the Prot-Bond-on-everybody incredi-perk).

@Xenos - ER Elementalists miss out on two important prots, Aegis and Shield of Absorption. Yes Spirit Bond + Prot Spirit covers for most part, but I don't think it's fair to say their damage mitigation exceeds that of everything else.

Agree entirely that ER Elementalists don't make Monks useless, but it's an overpowered template. I just don't think it should be nerfed.

Two ER infusers makes everything easymode. It allows for bar compression and thusly more prots. Condition removal is easy - hexxes are harder due to the terrible recharge times, but you can slot that onto someone else or heroes.

I don't deny that working alongside an HB monk is fine (I have PUG'd with many and they can hit 500+ dwayna's kiss heals) but it pales horribly in comparison to dual ER.

Xenomortis · Nov 27, 2009, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

If the midline can't cope with the cleaning, what makes you think a monk will?

In the time it takes to cast Heal Party and have it recharge, an ER healer will have infused the entire party.

If a midliner has dedicated themselves to cleaning, then they've become a backliner. A monk can clean and relieve pressure through lighter heals that they can spam on recharge with only a little energy management.
If they feel they don't need to run HB, then Restore Condition would be nice in areas with heavy pressure and lots of conditions - RC both relieves conditions and gives a strong spot heal. It can be spammed fairly quickly.

Infuse Health cannot be spammed. Unless you dedicate your bar to it (and if you are you're being stupid), ER will not make up the health loss from Infuse. The power of your infuse weakens and your health drops lower and lower until you have to stop and get your health back up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

By the way I've said elsewhere that I don't think running two ER Infusers is a good idea. That's because they'll be stacking Prots as well as Infusing each other when they shouldn't be, and they completely miss out on hex removal / condition removal (although they do get the Prot-Bond-on-everybody incredi-perk).

As you said, secure Prot Bond is the real attraction of that.
Otherwise, if the ER's coordinate you just make their jobs easier by having two (they should know not to infuse each other unless they start taking actual damage). One ER can usually stack enough prots to keep the entire party covered.
If you do run two, you should run something defensive on the midline. A hero MB is a good person to take a bit of cleaning (Signet of Removal is nice with ERs and Aegis is good to fit in somewhere). Usually, that is sufficient.

Despite this, me and guildies frequently form teams with 2 ERs and pretty much no cleaning. I don't think our UW setups have any cleaning at all - it's only an annoyance in two areas and we just eat it.

Wheel of time · Nov 27, 2009, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Infuse Health cannot be spammed. Unless you dedicate your bar to it (and if you are you're being stupid), ER will not make up the health loss from Infuse. The power of your infuse weakens and your health drops lower and lower until you have to stop and get your health back up.

Ehm... No?

You can constantly infuse for about 20 seconds while still healing for 200+
by just having Er, aura and ps (and sb) on you.

but agree on the second part

Xenomortis · Nov 27, 2009, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wheel of time

Ehm... No?

You can constantly infuse for about 20 seconds while still healing for 200+
by just having Er, aura and ps (and sb) on you.

but agree on the second part

ER at 15 (because numbers are nicer here) heals for 20 per enchantment.
So ER, Aura, PS and SB will give you 80 health.
At 15, Aura will give you 50 health for a 10e spell.
So that's 130 health.

The equilibrium point for Infuse then, with the setup you describe will be a 130 health heal with you lingering at 130 health (casting gets you to 260, which drops immediately to 130 after the cast).
Odds are SB will drop in that time too, necessitating a recast.

130 health? That's what, 4 hits through PS? If your max health is 500, then it's a mere 3 hits if they hit normally hit for 50+.

The numbers get a little better with Life Attunement though.
130*1.4 (11 prot) = 182 for the equilibrium point if SB is replaced with LA.
It's 150*1.4 = 210, which is better, if LA is stacked on top of your given situation.

Perhaps a more important note though. If you're spamming infuse it means your prots are failing or starting to drop.
Keep your prots up.

Wheel of time · Nov 27, 2009, 05:05 PM // 17:05

well but with PS and SB up you should not drop that fast (plus if you get hit and than cast you're under the equilibrium--> healed again)

of course i am not spamming infuse (unless i think its really necessary [to counter a aoespell for example]) it was more theoretical^^.

Oh and sry for forgetting life attunement.

anyway, i really hope they don't nerf ER/Infuse. ER is currently the +/- only build with which i feel to be a valid addition to my team. Sure it is OP, but so are a/d, sf, 600, soulreapingabuse.. . PvE is currently defined by being stuffed with OP things.

I would reluctantly agree to a nerf if eles were given another place in the meta, but as i see the situation now, ER is about the only useful ele elite (SH scatters before even hitting its full dmg, sf may be cool if more than one person brings it, but still armordepednding dmg which needs burning kinda sucks. Snare, Blind or wards are simply not needed when you can easily stamroll everything by having an imbagon. )

reaper with no name · Nov 28, 2009, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Monks cope better with party-wide damage - Infuse may be godly with ER support, but then you can't Infuse half the party in the time it takes to cast Heal Party. You have 0.75s aftercast and 0.25s cast time, total 1s, and you can only Infuse two players. Party-wide damage destroys ER, as you will quickly find out if you do Unwaking Waters. By the way, Heal Party can and should be backed by Healer's Boon (think of the health gained: +44% via Life Attunement from the ER Ele, +50% from HB, 14 Healing Prayers, x2 from GoLE = 300++ health to everyone).

Hm. I was unaware of the aftercast delay.

Ok, then. I retract my statement. Monks aren't useless. Just nearly so.

Quote:

The Dervish vs. War / Sin case is a rather different; I don't know enough to comment on that precisely but it seems to me Dervishes still have some advantages (Avatars, Save Yourselves!, higher Scythe Mastery, a non-Flail IAS, etc).

Oh, trust me on this one. I've done the math more times than I care to count. But I'd rather not talk about that here...